As someone who works in higher-ed and also has taught middle school and high school aged kids, my opinion is not that LLM use is exploding among students because they're lazy or stupid or anything else

it's because our educational system has prioritized a very transactional "do this bullshit, and you get the credentials you need to have a life" approach for

well

maybe forever, really

and no one should be surprised that adversarial approaches by teachers and administrators are being met with an adversarial approach by students

@left_adjoint As someone who recently got their bachelor: Everything i did was just to get the credit points, then forget everything to make space for the next.

Im sure there is leftover understanding in my brain but thats the thing that is encouraged.

@left_adjoint Astute observation 👆🏼

@left_adjoint As a tutor, I also see a lot of punishing students for creatively approaching problems and assignments. They learn to just regurgitate information instead of actively engaging with material. They not only get no appreciation for learning, they get actively punished for demonstrating an understanding beyond "a, b, c, or d." So of course they'd rather just ask an online tool what the answer is.

@nebula oh my god so as someone who tries to give assignments that involve using some creativity it sometimes feels like pulling teeth to get them to try something that isn't just "copy exactly what you've already done before, again, and turn it in"

@nebula so many students have just been trained to see real problem solving as a trap teachers/professors set to punish you

@left_adjoint The commingling of education and screening really is the tragedy of schools and universities. While education is obviously (part of) their mission, it's much less obvious whether screening also should be. As Zach Weinersmith puts it, "Universities basically provide a free vetting system for companies now".

https://bsky.app/profile/zachweinersmith.bsky.social/post/3lpc3q5l6sk2t

@glocq oh, huh, I don't actually agree with zach on a lot of things but yeah we're pretty much aligned on this one

@left_adjoint One thing I’ve been thinking about is how we never talk explicitly with our students about what the *purpose*/social function of writing is…

@left_adjoint My mom was a teacher for over 40 years, and she _hated_ that the curriculum went from, "teach useful shit." to, "teach for the standardized test." All her coworkers hated that nonsense. It should surprise no one that the prioritization of standardized testing has made LLM very appealing to modern students.

As usual, don't blame teachers, don't even blame school boards. BLAME POLITICIANS. The best sound intentions often result in the worst outcomes.

LLM use is not exploding because the current generation is stupid or lazy, but its use is making them stupid and lazy.

Remember, schools in the USA LOSE funding when more students fail standardized testing. Ie, when they need that funding the most. Our educational system is right proper fucked to the core.

@left_adjoint I've always thought it was ironic that students were encouraged to study for a test. All that does is test their ability to study, not their actual knowledge or problem solving skills.

@soviut and even worse timed exams are sometimes just a test of their ability to overcome anxiety and not even of their ability to study!

@left_adjoint

Also helps one understand our whole economy and consumer environment feeling much the same.

@left_adjoint @nebula

and isnt most of real life like that for 90% of the work force?

@left_adjoint if you haven't already read it, Susan Blum's _Schoolishness_ is a fantastic read on this topic. https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501774188/schoolishness/ IMHO it would be a great thing if LLMs pushed education away from "writing alone" kinds of activities and towards "doing together" ones. (edit: *would* be a great thing)

@nuintari @left_adjoint I would also tentatively suggest that maybe part of the problem is a culture that only assesses the quality of education by return on investment.

@nerdpr0f @left_adjoint The United States is a meritocracy, but the only merit is $$$.

@nuintari @nerdpr0f @left_adjoint Calvinism can rot in hells I don't think exist

@left_adjoint Agreed, huge :pikachu-surprise: to anyone who expected any different from gatekeeping-credentialist complex. I know plenty of great educators at all levels who will never really have trouble from LLMs wrt knowing is the students are learning...

@left_adjoint yes, this, and yes, it is always been like that.
In defence, this doesn't happen in rare countries where student is priority, not cheapest education.

@left_adjoint

Kids aren’t stupid, they recognize how the system really works and they adapt to it. If we don’t like it, maybe we shouldn’t build that system.

@left_adjoint

Bingo.

The #LLM are not the problem in #education, it's how and what we teach is.
If you think #AI is "cheating", you are actively disabling your students for a world that will already be hard for humans to survive in.

@left_adjoint Yup, a dictatorial instead of a collaborative approach is certainly not the best education can offer to make students flourish.

@courtcan @left_adjoint I don't mind test taking on a computer. I just think tests shouldn't be studied for; they're meant to be a measurement, not a goal.

@left_adjoint If it had been a grassroots tool students came up with to cheat bullshit work, I'd be sympathetic to this view. But we're talking about a billion dollar intellectual property grinder propped up by people who consider universities as dangerous leftist thought bastions that should be dismantled in order to fully bring about their fascist technofeudalism ideal.

It still doesn't say anything more (or less) about students themselves, but this time the picture is slightly bigger than the immemorial small stake arms race between teachers and students.

@left_adjoint
YES, HOLY SHIT YES, THIS.

If a school system's attitude towards students is "do this bullshit, asshole" it makes sense why more and more students are choosing to offload it to LLMs. If you don't put respect in you're not gonna get respect out.

RE: https://tilde.zone/@left_adjoint/114614873777978142

first post i actually agree with on LLM/highered relationship lol

yeah of course im going to bullshit on my assignments if im actively punished for seeking my own solutions AND this an entirely transactional relationship where everyone hates one another

when im being ranted at for brace styles in C instead of the actual assignment, of course im gonna just stop caring

if your solution to the LLM problem is making more pointless task churn and scaring students into submission, you're part of the problem

and im also going to note that your students probably hate you and wish you to begin coughing in 3 days every day

@EinsPossum @left_adjoint

I really have to get students to unlearn this during our internship to allow them to become good professionals.

@EinsPossum @left_adjoint

This is an example of the Welcome slides I provide at the start of the internship.

https://figshare.com/articles/presentation/WEHI_RCP_Internship_Program_Welcome/28503338

#students #interns

@rowlandm @EinsPossum @left_adjoint

Well done! Very nice visuals to make a point. I will link/quote that, if I ever am asked to work with a student or apprentice.

@Jenkins @EinsPossum @left_adjoint

Thanks!

Let me know how you go.

I'll be updating this in the next couple of weeks as I get ready for the next intake.

@zlasha @EinsPossum @left_adjoint

Thank you :)

It is a pity that many students are indoctrinated and so this doesn't register with them until week 8, 9, or 10 (sometimes more!)

@hypolite
Students, specially younger ones, are just replicating the culture they were taught.

LLM owners are totally being oportunistic about it. Just keep that culture going on, and it is a win-win for them.

How do we do a culture shift? Idk :c
@left_adjoint

@skrlet13 @left_adjoint History shows it takes a concerted effort and billions of dollars to put it in the public space, keep it there until it becomes pervasive. Car culture hasn't always been a thing in the US, but relentless lobbying by General Motors among others have succeeded in making it a reality we have to wrestle with now.