so is this still a KKKatholic instance then?

@salt WORM.PINK IS PROTESTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@salt

@lizzie no... IT'S CATHOLIC!

@luce-anon @lizzie inshallah the orthodox wave will flatten you all

@luce-anon @lizzie can you explain to me why the trinity? christianity has a lot of objectionable dogmas, but the trinity just seems straightforwardly to be a rejection of the oneness of God.

@salt @luce-anon i mean, God is love. love is for the other. life is being born in all things.

upholding the oneness of God isnt really a goal of christianity in the first place. what makes christianity monotheistic isnt that its a case of polytheism where n=1, its that its concerned with the ground into which being is written, which is necessarily one essence

@salt @luce-anon it totally is a rejection of the oneness of God as a muslim (for example) would conceive of it, and thats not a problem bc that simply isnt one of our concerns

@lizzie @luce-anon okay. if that grounding is one essence though, why are there three persons? in what way do they relate to the essence? what the hell is even a "person" supposed to be in this sense?

@salt @luce-anon tbh i will probably get something wrong here bc the trinity is genuinely very weird.
each person is the whole undivided essence, and there is nothing accomplished by God that is not accomplished by any given person. there is no creation apart from the son, no sanctification apart from the father, and no incarnation apart from the spirit. we do, however, relate to them in different ways as we relate differently to different people. similarly, they relate and interact with one another, and we would often describe the roles they play in different things in different terms

@lizzie @luce-anon this is basically unintelligible to me as a monotheist. though it would have made sense to me before, when i was a polytheist, which really makes it look like polytheism. but i don't want to argue with people of the book and i'm sure i wouldn't present anything you hadn't already heard. i'm just still very confused as to *why*. like i know what the trinity is, you've admitted it's shirk so i wasn't confused or anything. it's just such a random and arbitrary idea i don't understand where it comes from or why anyone who's actually thought about it would believe it.

@salt @luce-anon i mean it all comes down to theosis really. its why i said “life is being born in all things” in my initial reply

@salt @luce-anon God is the telos of all things

its muslim actually

CC: @lizzie@brain.worm.pink

@lizzie @luce-anon this doesn't explain where the number 3 comes into any of this at all

@salt @luce-anon thats kinda the point! neither 3 nor 1 are goals to be achieved. theyre downstream consequences

@salt @luce-anon God is born. God was born in Bethlehem and God is being born in all things. this is called the Son.

@luce-anon @salt this relationship is the procession of the holy spirit, which therefore is the means of entering the relationship, and the means of giving birth

@lizzie @luce-anon okay i can follow that. though it still doesn't answer my question. did the trinity exist as an idea before the coming of your savior?

@salt @luce-anon as an idea? no. christ was veiled before being incarnate

@salt @luce-anon and it still took a couple centuries of people going “wtf did Jesus mean when he said “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”” to really get it in the terms we would use today

@lizzie @luce-anon that just seems so arbitrary. like true religion got revealed with little to no warning one day after thousands and thousands of years of humanity being around? AND even then it wasn't perfect. why would God do that? because for me by far the most compelling argument for the truth of my religion is that it's exactly the same one that adam (saw) followed.

and if jesus revealed such divine truths, why was he so cagey and confusing about everything? why did it take people who were supposedly taught by God directly hundreds of years to understand what he was saying, even on fundamental ideas? if the people who could ask jesus directly what he meant didn't believe in the trinity, and it's not made explicit in the bible, but it's still supposed to be a vital and fundamental part of the true religion, where did it come from?

@salt @luce-anon why would you want to follow the way that adam followed into hell (though fortunately did not end there)?

@lizzie @luce-anon what? i have no idea what you're talking about

@salt @luce-anon well what is muslim belief about adam?

@lizzie @luce-anon like in general? he's mentioned a number of times in the quran, it would be difficult to summarize. his main thing is being the first man, is that what you meant? i'm completely lost.

@salt @luce-anon what is his role in the present state of creation?

@lizzie @luce-anon he was just a guy as far as i know. what else?

@salt @luce-anon i mean a lot of the gospel of mark is about how much people dont Get It. and the trinity is not really necessary for some level of relationship with God. what it is necessary for is constituting the church. the apostles did still believe in the trinity and that is good enough (and john laid a lot of the groundwork for more rigorous metaphysics). further precision in definitions is for the sake of our understanding.

in any case, Christianity considers the default way of this world evil. the incarnation and passion make reality real and allow a different way. they are an intrusion into the world and into time to turn them on their head

@salt @luce-anon interesting

@salt @luce-anon complex metaphysical understanding is not necessary for practice on an individual level really. what its important for is helping the church keep things consistent

@lizzie @salt @luce-anon

That's very interesting. (It sort of ignores the Synoptic problem in favor of traditional understandings over modern scholarship, but I can't fault you for that.)

@lizzie @salt @luce-anon

If you want to know about Adam and Hawa (peace upon them), their story isn't that deep. Like, we don't see them as particularly deviant or as the origin of sin. They were lied to by Iblees, so even though they made an error in judgement, it was more that they were kinda nieve rather than flagrantly disregarding the rules. So when Adam repented of his error, he was forgiven. And of course, the sins of one person are the sins of only that person.

So you are trying to figure out if Muslims have original sin, and the answer is, no, absolutely not. We are not born in a sinful condition as a result of Adam eating some fruit.

Also, there's still time for Iblees to repent. The time between the sins of Iblees and the day of Judgement is metaphorically like a "go to your room and think about what you did" kind of thing. And instead of reflecting on his mistakes and repenting, he's decided to smear his shit all over the walls. My mom woulda beat my ass for that.

@technicallydifficult @luce-anon @salt i was familiar with no original sin but i wasn’t sure how that played out. i see

@technicallydifficult @lizzie @luce-anon @salt I think the story of Adam and eve is rather deep. its a reflection on the unique position of man between animal and God, the blessing and burden of sapience. original sin is like the worst form of karma though.

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult i agree! also i half jokingly call christianity the abolition of karma sometimes lmao

@technicallydifficult @luce-anon @salt so what christians see as the fallen state of the world is instead Iblees throwing a tantrum and misleading people from that straightforward walk?

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt

We lack the entire reason that Christians think Jesus (pbuh) had to die. We don't need a sacrifice to be forgiven. We just ask.

We do actually do sacrifices, that's what zabah is, but it's not to be forgiven by punishing an animal in our place, it's to do a good deed and feed ourselves and our community.

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt

yeah.

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult though ig original sin is less a sort of karma in itself and more the establishment of the conditions in which karma-like tendencies thrive (Adam took law from the tree in a sense)

@lizzie @georgia @luce-anon @salt

Karma is kind of a cause and effect system, Christians appear to use a one and done scapegoat system. Muslims just apologize and try to do better than they did before. Not to throw shade at christians, but the scapegoat thing doesn't exactly lend itself to accountability.

@technicallydifficult @georgia @luce-anon @salt im not a calvinist lol

@technicallydifficult @georgia @luce-anon @salt penal substitutionary elements do have their place in the broader church but full forensic atonement is historically unusual. the whole point of the scapegoat thing is that scapegoating is the way of a fallen world

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/11/14/st-maximus-the-confessor-on-the-cosmic-fall/ its kinda dense but i really think this is the clearest thing ive read on the fall

@technicallydifficult @lizzie @luce-anon @salt karma functions as the instrument of Gods perfect justice but God is still infinitely merciful.

@georgia @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult replace karma with providence, and that's the ultimate view I have of the christian conception of the course of the world

@allison @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult God is above dharma and adharma but still institutes dharma.

@georgia @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult I think "institutes" is almost too strong of a word here, it's a choice but only in the most technical sense, given both full foreknowledge of the course of events as well as being compelled by omnibenevolence to seek out the resolving of the ultimate good at a defined point in time and space, as typified in the incarnation

@allison @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult I think you just misunderstood me tbh. God establishes righteousness in every age, but certainly isnt "compelled to".

@lizzie @georgia @luce-anon @salt

Most of my family would be considered calvanists, though they don't know that. They call themselves Non-Denominational, but they're in the WHMFC (world harvest minesterial fellowship conference) which is a denomination. Then again, they don't even worship God, but only Jesus, like they've become monotheistic, in the wrong direction. They are denying the trinity now, but saying that it's because they only worshi Jesus (pbuh). And I'm so confused, because that wasn't the teaching when I was a child.

@lizzie @luce-anon @technicallydifficult well that's not exactly how i think of it. adam (saw) was tricked, but that doesn't mean people only stray from Allah (swt) because they were tricked by iblis. the "fallen state of the world" that i recognize today is not historically traced back to the time of adam (saw), and for the most part i would blame human free will more than iblis for it anyway. the idea that the world is fallen in some more fundamental ontological sense that stems back to the time of creation seems to me to be clear dystheism.

@salt @lizzie @luce-anon

Neat. I've had too many minor seizures today.

@georgia @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult it's not your view, but it is certainly mine.

@allison @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult thats fair

@allison @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult @georgia im still trying to understand providence tbh

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult abolish balance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! harrow hell!!!!

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult balance kills. law kills

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult @georgia law and custom are ultimately instituted for want of truth and providence.

@allison @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult @georgia oh for sure

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult no one suffers forever, everyone returns to God eventually, and for good.

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult here’s the relevant excerpt

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult TRUE

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult y'all love your hypostasises

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult yeah 💀

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult i mean when youre conceptually bridging not-fundamentally real existence and God, theyre really useful and we had neoplatonist terms to work with so

@lizzie @georgia @luce-anon @technicallydifficult i just don't understand why he had to be so extra about it. christianity looks like an awfully convoluted mess from the outside.

Allah (swt) gives a clear warning, and has equipped humans with the tools to understand it since the time of adam (saw). you don't need philosophy to understand it, you don't need to wrap your head around hypostases and incarnation and original sin and so on. the message is simple and clear, and presented in concrete terms which anyone could grasp.

regardless of whether philosophy is necessary for christian salvation on an individual level, it still pervades christian psychology and belief systems. and mistaking the products of your abstract reasoning as reality inevitably leads to falsehood.

@salt @georgia @luce-anon @technicallydifficult i mean we would argue that islam’s pursuit of simplicity has led it into falsehood. from the outside islam looks like its just missing a lot and fails to see the full degree of brokenness in the world nor the degree to which it will be made whole

@salt @georgia @luce-anon @technicallydifficult there is no return to innocence, only redemption/new birth

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult @georgia it's one of the things that attracted me to back to christianity back in the day

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult shalom from path to nowhere reference

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult @georgia "everything in my life (indeed life itself in the most literal sense) is a convoluted mess of complexities folding into and complicating other complexities, every true thing ends up being like this somehow" "this is what each religion's theology looks like" is one of the other things that attracted me back into christianity back in the day

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult yes thats the magenta haired woman who keeps showing up in yuri bot posts. she also has an associated crimebrand called heartbreak that has flavor text based on psalm 51

@georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult https://woem.space/objects/19c0599c-9720-426e-9989-68120f734109 example image

@salt @lizzie @luce-anon the way the trinity was explained to me:

- christianity (keeping in mind this was an eastern orthodox church and aquinas-style total systematization is a western post-schism development) is first and foremost a tradition of incremental revelations building on each other, so messiness is expected https://www.reddit.com...

- the strong implication of that set of revelations, as expressed through the self-sacrifice of christ in the context of all the stuff leading up to it (tl;dr certain themes get shoehorned into a lot of OT verses and folks can argue all day long whether they're a proper fit), is that the fundamental quality of God is self-sacrificing love for an Other

- creation is not a necessary consequence or part of God, who alone can exist in and of itself

- but that self-sacrificing love for an Other cannot exist without an Other, therefore there must be multiple persons contained in the godhead

just *why* three not two at this point was never actually explained to me, but

- lots of things come in threes for some reason

- the revelation we were given is of Christ, the Father, and the Spirit (and at some point Jesus said something that indicated the Spirit was coeval with the Father and the Son, i don't actually remember what)

- if the only love was for a single indivisible Other then that becomes a monomaniacal fixation that would leave no room for anyone else. what would justify the act of creation then? three is therefore the minimum number

incidentally, i read every romance in which the couple desire only each other at the expense of all other relationships as being fundamentally a tragedy

yes this includes the bae ending of life is strange

@allison @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult @georgia "don't be the reason they need to make a new rule"

@apophis @lizzie @luce-anon the idea of revelations building on eachother is just a bit counterintuitive to me, but that all makes sense i guess. though i don't really understnad your last point, which unfortunately is the one that seems to best actually answer the question i asked.

@salt @lizzie @luce-anon the last point may well be at its heart a rationalization for the pre-existing constraint of needing to accept the three-ness

@salt @lizzie @luce-anon i just saw a post by threebodybot https://mathstodon.xyz... and it occurs to me why the three-body problem is the difficult one and not the two-body problem is related somehow

@apophis @lizzie @luce-anon cause like the idea of god being two, even though it's very silly, i can at least wrap my head around it. but three is totally out of left field. it only would make sense to me from a numogrammatics perspective, which so far is the best account of the actual origin of the trinity i've yet encountered. that seems totally absurd though, which is why i'm so curious where people think it comes from.

@salt @lizzie @luce-anon what's numogrammatics?

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt also related https://mastodon.socia...

@salt @apophis @luce-anon i mean, it is through the dwelling of the holy spirit that the son is born, so while i do not actually fully understand why the holy spirit is there, i do feel confident saying that a God who is two persons wouldnt create

@lizzie @georgia @luce-anon @technicallydifficult the particular version of brokenness you've presented today is on par with gnosticism, to the extent i'm honestly shocked a christian would even consider it. how you believe it without also believing god is either evil or impotent is beyond me.

as for "missing a lot", i just don't know what more you could want.

@salt im gonna untag the others bc i dont want to argue in their mentions

“what more could you want?” antinomian nomianism! theosis! new life! God being born in all things!

@lizzie @apophis @luce-anon see now again this is totally unintelligible

@salt i do think there is a demiurge-ish role but its taken on by adam/humanity itself. (though i will add that material existence is not itself evil as nothing that exists is evil, and evil only lies in corruption. the resurrection is one of the body). in a sense creation isnt done. i really need to read up on st maximus bc he does seem to be the guy to go to on supratemporal fall

@salt @apophis @luce-anon if theosis is telos and theosis is the process of God becoming incarnate in that which already exists, then there is no reason to create if there is no means of this being achieved. the son doesn’t really have a role to play in anything at all

@lizzie @luce-anon @salt
> i do feel confident saying that a God who is two persons wouldnt create

that's the intuition i didn't want to type out for want of any articulable source but the "what would justify the act of creation then?" was an attempt

@lizzie i have no idea what any of those terms mean, and i don't want to accuse you of sophistry but it does feel intentional at this point

@salt i wrote it more for myself since i was about to sleep

• antinomian nomianism is stuff ive posted about before but its basically christianity’s weird position that is what leads to it being comparatively antinomian compared to islam. the only law is love. laws of letter kill, but in the end we do still value ethical reasoning
  the last three are all the same thing really. “God became man so that man could become God”. the idea of being made new rather than being returned to innocence. secretly both of those last two but repeated again

@lizzie @salt @apophis @luce-anon

Surah Al Ma'ida, ayah 17
Indeed, those who say, “Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have fallen into disbelief. Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Who has the power to prevent Allah if He chose to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, his mother, and everyone in the world all together?” To Allah ˹alone˺ belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between. He creates whatever He wills. And Allah is Most Capable of everything.

Since you don't take the Qur'an as true, I will show you with the Bible, that Jesus is a Prophet, and not a god.

Matthew 4:10, Jesus makes a point to only worship God alone
13:54-57, calls himself a prophet
21:10-11, crowds greet him recognizing his prophethood
and of course to wrap up Matthew, Chapter 26, I must ask if you think he is praying to himself? Would a god need to pray?

Mark 6:4 calls himself a prophet
Mark 10:17-18 denies being good and says that only God is good.
Mark 12:28-30 says the greatest command is that God is one, quoting Deuteronomy 6:4
Mark 13:32 Jesus isn't all-knowing, only God is

And that's only from the first 2 synoptic gospels. Would you like me to keep going? I have 60 passages in my notes that refute the trinity.

@salt anyway im going to be honest, i like you but i think we have thoroughly clashing personalities. its to the point that the day you followed me on main, i dmed a friend saying that it is my goal to get you to unfollow or even block. i didnt even know you were muslim at that point.

wait i reread that dm and i toned it down to “i must not care”

@apophis https://youtu.be/f_G4xqkiZX0?si=1rr9z6CtkG6wz5vG

@apophis @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @georgia

Islam has its complexities, but it doesn't really start until you study fiqh.

Like, most people don't realize that Jafaari and Hanafi fiqh are related to each other. Because Jafaari fiqh is from Shia, and Hanafi is Sunni. But the Quran teacher of Imam Hanifa was a Jafaari madhab Shia scholar. Hanafi school tends to have the most cross-platform compatibility to use a computing metaphor. And these two schools play an important role in the development of Islamic jurisprudence east of Persia. Especially in Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh.

@apophis @georgia @lizzie @luce-anon @salt

The thicken plots:

The Ummayad Dynasty of the Arab Empire had conquered some area east of Persia, and were Sunni aligned. The Abassyd Dynasty which was founded by the rebels against them was Shia aligned. The only legitimate way to obtain slaves is prisoners of war. The Mamluk Sultanate was founded by freed slaves. The Mughal Empire that succeeded them in the aftermath of the Mongol invasions ended up being a cosmopolitan mix of different Islamic schools of thought, and were highly pluralistic, but also ended up being the wealthiest Islamic nation ever to exist. We're talking, like, tea sets carved out of large emeralds. The average peasant in Bangladesh had more wealth than a contemporary English Lord. They had control of the Spice Road, the Silk Road, and an Ocean trade route linking the South Pacific to Africa. These folks had so much of it, they were silly with gold. They also traded with the Dutch and British East India Companies, but really should have shot them, since that's who ended up destroying their civilization. But anyways, the tea that was thrown overboard in boston harbor was from there. The spices common in British and american cooking in the 18th century was from there. And so were a lot of items traded on the American frontier. In fact, the Mughal export clothes were popular fashions on the frontier, and still form the basis of some Native American Regalia. Mughals are also why Cherokee wore turbans and long knee-length shirts. That was the level of society and trade and influence they had. And naturally, there's a lot of religious and philosophical development that goes along with that.

So much. It's why the reformist Berelehvi movement only went back to that era to look at fiqh instead of like the Salafis and Wahabis going all the way back to the beginning to start over.

@apophis @georgia @lizzie @luce-anon @salt

This ibn arian guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I just talked to him and he sides with israelis even thoughh he's not from there, and claims he loves them even though Qur'an forbids supporting those who kill believers and spread corruption.

I'm warning you not to take him seriously since he doesn't even know this very basic thing from the beginning of the Qur'an. He is also using as an avatar, a character from star trek famous for committing genocide.

@technicallydifficult dw im not taking him seriously lmao. i read his bio. he followed and im absolutely not following back

@technicallydifficult i mean the flag of israel in dn was enough of a red flag

@lizzie
Yeah. That guy is allllll red flags. I blocked his whole instance.

@lizzie "i didnt even know you were muslim" 💀

@salt i assumed there would specifically be an argument about religion at some point but yeah i wasnt sure which one it would be about

@lizzie i learned a lot, i think it was a nice conversation. it aint that deep.

@salt oh cool!

@luce-anon @lizzie

The Wormium Caliphate