Something I find interesting about the way Toby Fox and people that occupy that space handle queerness is the fact that, like, none of their characters are really *queer,* per se.
Like, in the original sense of the word, I mean. Alphys and Undyne are, in a literal sense, lesbians, but the society in which they exist doesn't view lesbian relationships as strange or abnormal so their love lacks any of the inherent friction of real life same-sex pairings. You could make the Royal Guards a buff4buff straight couple and literally nothing would change.
This is why I feel UTDR has problems depicting transness in any real way. The main character is nonbinary but seemingly they just spawned into the world like that, because actually *showing* transition in the way people experience it requires that friction, something the idyllic post-queerphobic society of Hometown can't handle.

@AppleAmps ive maintained that if he goes for introducing transness its frame will most likely be intrinsically linked to the sinister free will meta side of the game rather than the cutesy queer side. deltarune opens with the body u created for urself in an already comedically limited fashion being discarded and a new one being forced on u

@detondev
That's a fair reading but it's hard for me to believe it won't just stay as an allegory, or like, be so fantastical it won't really register as explicit transness.

@AppleAmps If at all itll be thru that, even if allegorical. if he loves internet slop and wants the allegory to feel less subtle noelle will be made an explicit trans woman

@AppleAmps idk? imo there’s SOME evidence that toriel is homophobic in some way, and i’ve always read kris as explicitly trans(nonbinary), in the same or a similar way to how i and other real people are trans

@shroomie
Frankly the Toriel bit is approaching fanon but either way, that's my point. If Kris was transplanted to our reality they'd obviously be trans because to be where they are they'd have had to transition, but within the text they aren't because they didn't. What I'm talking about here is that the trans experience necessitates transition, a transgression against cispatriarchal social norms. Within a fictional setting where those norms don't exist, and someone really can just spawn in being non-binary, trans-ness isn't a concept that applies. That's also my point with Undyne and Alphys, if they existed on Earth they'd be queer but because within the Underground queer people are treated as straight, their fictional relationship is culturally closer to irl straight pairings than irl gay pairings.
My point is that UTDR has a lot of representation where the character in question is technically gay or trans but not a lot that reflects the experience of being queer.

@shroomie
And you can see this in action! Queer-focused discussions of Deltarune always have to exist within the realm of theories and assumptions: Ralsei is an egg, Toriel and Carol are homophobic, Mancountry represents Kris' transition, because if you stick to what's explicit in the text there aren't any discussions to be had.

@AppleAmps imean . the first part of what you say is true , yes . but also ?theres SO MANY things that represent queerness , esp in deltarune . actual queerness doesnt rlly do that , sure , but like . kris’s problems with being “human” ? just as an example , ofc . like . identity is really a central theme in deltarune and it is also a central topic when talking about transness . the two are closely related

now , the fact that actual transness does not rlly do that in hometown should not make u think that this world is empty of such themes . kris being non binary and also being the character that most expresses such identity issues should be seen as an indication that when reading the text , the reader should link those two , even tho the plot does not do that for its own reasons (subtlety mostly , i believe)

@AppleAmps like . the queer elements arent the topic per se , but they DO guide you towards the actual elements that expose the important themes of the text , and those themes are VERY queer in nature , imo

@AppleAmps also , being full of queer character can even simply be seen as a marker of “this game is Cool with gay people existing. if thats a problem with you, this is probably not your type of game” which frankly i cant really blame toby for .

@AppleAmps


@shroomie


I've been told Carol is also racist, which is why she looks Like That.

@fiore
That's true! And I don't think it's a flaw with Deltarune that Toriel doesn't look to the camera and dictate her experiences with Kris' coming out, but frankly I'm a bit tired of queer existence in popular media being exclusively communicated tacitly by way of themes and allegory. It feels like if Detroit: Become Human was the only accepted way of touching on race, y'know?

@AppleAmps oh yea thats totally fair i agree :/ but also , would you really want such themes and topics discussed more explicitly and deeply by toby fox , a cis man that despite having been an ally forever and being one of my personal heros , is still a cis man ? (assuming toby is cis , of course if he ever turns out to have been transgender this whole time thisll look very stupid and ill be sorry but like .i feel like since he has never said anything we can sort of statistically assume this )

@AppleAmps oh also theres mad mew mew which i would argue is quite good representation for what it is ^^

@fiore
Ok ok that's true I totally forgot about her. I think if I'd had written her it'd be a bit *more* explicit but for what it is I think it works well.

@AppleAmps like i feel like toby isnt rlly interested in depicting social issues as much as personal ones in his game and thats fair , but yea i also wish more stuff depicted trans issues (and others that are kinda glossed over in deltarune are like . police stuff . yknow . police in hometown is chill) , bbut i dont think deltarune of all things is the right thing to want them in ngl

@AppleAmps imean . theres a pronouns change , a body swap , and a serious pre established link between ghosts and transness in the underground . i dont think he couldve rlly been any less subtle ngl . he also plays into some funny stereotypes in a tasteful way imo . shes cool

@AppleAmps i mean i don’t think kris spawned in being nonbinary

@AppleAmps unrelated but mancountry in particular sticks out to me? like it feels like something from a different earthbound/yume nikki inspired rpg (this time with more yume nikki than earthbound.)

@shroomie
Please engage with my thematic analysis instead of just stating things you recon are true.

@fiore
I mean, to be fair I didn't say I thought Deltarune *should* be anything, I said it's interesting how Toby Fox and others in his pop-cultural space (the people making Adventure Time, Steven Universe, y'know, that stuff) create stories with explicitly queer characters that don't really have explicitly queer experiences. Also, idk, I don't think it would *hurt* to have some nod to that stuff in Deltarune, doesn't have to be anything big.

@AppleAmps okay sorry

@AppleAmps but like. i do largely read kris’ arc as that of generally being about self? and in specific i see a lot of suppression in them. freedom as a goal for them parallels a desire to be allowed to be themself, and so it makes sense to me, personally, that this would parallel an in-universe “transness.”

@AppleAmps ok like fair but this comparison is also the kinda thing i wanted to avoid getting to . i do not think deltarune and undertale belong to that cultural umbrella at all , honestly .. like i see why youd say that but also it just doesnt sit right w me idk

@shroomie @AppleAmps imean , kinda tho ?? theres no implication in the text that thats not the case . like sure , i love thinking about the game like that too , but . the game flows flawlessly if we assume kris has just been theying from the beginning .

@fiore @AppleAmps idk?? kris being trans is core to how i interpret their character arc

@shroomie @AppleAmps as i said in the other side of this thread , yes me too , but them being nonbinary to me feels more like a pointer towards the actual things that bring that theme out , rather that it itself being relevant

@shroomie @fiore
Joan, please read the stuff I've been writing, this is literally what I mean. Just because you can *interpret* a character as being trans doesn't mean they experience transness in the text, literally my main and only point has been about how most people write trans experiences through allegory and letting readers connect the dots instead of doing so explicitly, jesus christ.

@AppleAmps @fiore sorry im tired

@AppleAmps sorry im super defensive abt deltarune and and i have criticized things for these exact reasons before so like this is a messy topic for me i suppsoe

@shroomie @AppleAmps it ok ^^

@AppleAmps @fiore im sorry im sorry im sorry im sorry

@shroomie @fiore
Don't worry about it.

@shroomie @fiore
I'm sorry for being antagonistic.

@AppleAmps @fiore i hate everything im sorry im tired

@shroomie @AppleAmps hugs the shroomie <3 we r all friends and pals talking about a game here , it ok ^^

@fiore
Oh, no worries, jaja. This has been a really nice, thoughtful discussion, so, uh, thanks for that!

I do wanna add that my comparison of Undertale/Deltarune with other popular all-ages media from the 10's isn't purely aesthetic or meant to deride it, though! Adventure Time is like, my favorite shit ever so it comes as high praise.

@fiore @shroomie
Yeah! Seconded!

@AppleAmps oh yea imean i love AT as well . its just . i guess i feel like putting undertale there doesnt rlly do justice to its homestuck roots , thats all ^^

but yea this discussion is nice.

@AppleAmps @fiore i’m sorry i think im just trying to make you feel bad i don’t know im sorry

@fiore
Y'know, actually iirc what I've been saying about Deltarune here goes double for Homestuck vis a vis June Egbert, but I haven't read it so like, idrk.

@AppleAmps i should finish it at some point too weeh